What do these car really have?

[sstrawsb]

So do superchargers make alot more power? Do you think i should just s/c the 325? humm ideas..... lol I saw the turbo at Active Autowerkes.

 

[brahtw8]

Turbos and superchargers have advantages and disadvantages. For the M3, advantages of the superchargers, primarily from Dinan and a few others, such as ERT, are the relative simplicity of the installation and the commonality of the system. Superchargers in general do not have lag associated with the spooling up of the turbo by the exhaust gas, as superchargers are driven by a belt from the engine, not recirculated exhaust gas. Turbos also have issues with the bearings and oil and need to be cooled down properly. Superchargers have issues as well, such as belts that break.

It really comes down to personal choice. Either system is going to cost you at least $7k with the installation, and considerably higher amounts as you increase the power and have to address the internal parts of the engine. A turbocharger may be a more efficient way to make a 500 (crank) hp M3, but a supercharged M3 with 350 hp at the rear wheels (say 400 at the crank) is probably more than you want or can handle.

Seriously, before you supercharge or turbocharge anything, buy the 325 or 328 you can afford and learn to drive the car at its limits first. You will find that the brakes, tires, and suspension are what you need to upgrade first. I am still learning the limits and capabilities of my 325i, and I have put 40k miles on it in the last two years, a good 500 or so at Road America. That upgrade money is best spent on upgrading the most important part of the equation, the driver. Go to track events and high performance driving schools if you really want to learn how to drive the car at speed. I know I keep repeating this stuff, but it is good advice and a great time.

From a cost perspective, you are much better off trading the 325 for an M3 than supercharging/turbocharging the 325. An M3 can be had for the $7k + extra that the turbo/SC adds to the 325 and will be worth more when you sell it and more reliable, all other things being equal. A supercharged 325 is going to be about as fast as a stock M3, a little faster perhaps than a 95, but that 95 can be easily modified.

 

[rjp325i]

Good advice brahtw8. Too many people modify their cars to the extreme and do not know how to properly handle them. A $500 weekend driving school run by one of the BMW CCA chapters is a worthwhile investment that will reward one for years.

 

[carcus]

Ok, here it is. I have a 96 328iCa, bone stock mecanically...my fiancee has a 99 Trans Am auto.
Yes, she is a girl, but believe me....she can drive.
Not too long ago we raced on the highway, top end from an on ramp...she floored it and so did I. She didn't exactly kick my butt up to my 135mph limiter, I was right with her the whole way. On top of that, the BMW is much, much more stable and glued to the road at those high speeds than the T/A is, I actually passed her once on a curve in the highway, all the while hitting my limiter, the only reason why she passed me again is because her car can do 150 mph (in a fairly unstable way). All this in a 4 or 5 mile stretch.
Not that I recommend top end freeway driving, but hey, what the hell.
As far as off the line is concerned, I've always been very impressed with the performance beeing an automatic 6 cyl in a convertible, easily taking her sisters 2000 V6 Mustang.

The F-Body Trans-AM is a LS1 V8 5.7L, she can't drive....the LS1 will put a hurting on you REAL quick. She must have missed a shift. The reason she passed you is 100 plus more HP. Give her some nice driving lessons. And the top out speed for the LS1 is 163mph. The F-Body handles pretty well also. Just keeping it real. The F-Body LS-1 is a LOW 13 second car stock.....even in automatic. I know, used to own one, before I traded it in for the Mercedes ML320 shit Box....and traded that in for my E36 328ic.....no E36 has a chance to take one....not an M3 either...the E46 M3......it can hold its own though, Not a flame.....just keeping it real. And my wifes V6 Camaro can take my 97 328ic.....These cars are nice smooth cruisers......not muscle cars.

 

[KBoogie]

Ya, i to ahold of a trans am on I-85 one night... we went from about 80.. and he was steadly pulling on me.... not ashamed to dmit i got beat by a LS1... But i know for a fact that if a V6 camaro is beting u, something isnt rigt... I have raced, well not really raced, but destroyed V6 camaros and mustangs many times. Hell, there was a girl riding around in her automatic yellow autmatic GT mustang, and she wantd to race... we went from like a 40mph roll, and i pulled on her, and then she wanted o try again at the stop light, and i pulled on her... pretty easily, and i must say, i as suprised.. But, it can be done... a V6 SHOULD be a cake walk....
KB

 

[GATTO5.9]

I am a friend of "keyztomybimmer" who has a 1997 328i. I, on the other hand have a 1998 jeep grand cherokee 5.9 limited. My baby has some ballz (270 hp intake exhaust. 250 stock and 345lb/ft of torque)

I am ready to race him! I know the 328 is capable of a sub-7 second 0-60 time, so is my jeep at 6.8 secs. (Motor Trend 1998) Any wagers out there? I know it will be a good one! He is not here right now, but I am calling him out! hehe. [fake]

I am a Jeep loyalist but I have mad respect for all the bimmers of the world. In fact I took my first loss to a brand spankin new 745i!
We were dead even to 65mph, then he started to pull on me! I know motor trend lists 0-60 in 5.9 for the 7. DAMN BIMMERS!!

 

[GATTO5.9]

As for the guy toying with buying a newer bimmer, get a 328. Torque is a great thing. There is no substitute for displacement. The more displacement in an engine, the more torque. Ex. The 2.8 has more torque than a 2.5. Horsepower isn't everything.

 

[brahtw8]

As for the guy toying with buying a newer bimmer, get a 328. Torque is a great thing. There is no substitute for displacement. The more displacement in an engine, the more torque. Ex. The 2.8 has more torque than a 2.5. Horsepower isn't everything.

All other things being equal, there is no substitute for displacement, unless its forced induction. The key is how much air is being put through it. Some engines do it with large cylinders at low rpm, i.e. large gulps of air at a slow pace, others do it with small cylinder engines at high rpm, i.e. a lot of little gulps, and still others are force fed air from a turbo or SC.

Even with NA engines (normally aspirated), variations in engine type can have a greater impact than displacement. A two-valve per cylinder single overhead cam 2.8 is not going to make as much torque or horsepower as a four valve, dohc, 2.5. For the same engine type, displacement will increase power.

As for the 745i, it should have been ahead of you earlier. Maybe the driver wasn't going all out until they realized you were staying with him/her.

 

[GATTO5.9]

good points on the displacement talk, you verified what I was trying to say. as for the 745 he may have had a foot or 2 on me after 60, then around 65 he ran away, he was definitly racing me. That v-8 engine sounds nice at full throtle. I have driven one in the BMW race for a cure. It seemed faster than my Jeep because of the way the transmission shifted and kept the revvs high in the rev range. My Jeep is no slouch either! It moves with the best of them!! 5.9 litres is a big engine for such a small truck!

 

[sstrawsb]

As for the guy toying with buying a newer bimmer, get a 328. Torque is a great thing. There is no substitute for displacement. The more displacement in an engine, the more torque. Ex. The 2.8 has more torque than a 2.5. Horsepower isn't everything.

So is the 328 that much faster then the 325? How much the 328s run for now?

Humm think think.. lol

 

[brahtw8]

So is the 328 that much faster then the 325? How much the 328s run for now?

Humm think think.. lol

The 325i has 189 hp/181 ft. lbs tq. The 328i 190 hp/207 ft. lbs tq.

Published reports put a manual 93-95 325i at 7.5-7.8 sec. to 60. A 328i is 7.0 sec. for 96, 6.6 for 97-99 (99 was E46 style for sedan, but E36 for coupe).

I think there is a final drive ratio or manual trans ratio difference between the 96 and the 97+ 328s that accounts for the difference, but ICBW. There is a similar discrepancy between the 96 M3s and the 97+.

I found a link to this data before the forum crashed, but I don't know the source of the #s or the transmission type for each car, although I could guess that convertible was an automatic, as was the 93 325i, based on the higher #s.

1992 BMW 325i 7.8 15.8
1993 BMW 325i 8.4 16.5
1993 BMW 325is 7.4 15.7
1994 BMW 325i 7.4 15.5
1994 BMW 325is 7.2 15.9
1994 BMW 325i Conv. 7.3 15.9
1995 BMW 325i 7.7 16.0
1995 BMW 325i Conv. 9.1 16.9
1996 BMW 328i Sport 6.4 15.0
1998 BMW 328is 6.2 14.7
1999 BMW 328i (E46) 6.9 15.2

Depends what you want to do with the car. Stock the 328 is faster, as a result of the bump in torque and the peak torque occuring at a lower rpm. The 325 is capable of greater gains in the aftermarket, as it is OBDI, vs. the 328 being OBDII. The 325 remains the favorite among the club-racer/touring car types.

Keep in mind that 0-60 is deceptive. A stock 325i needs an upshift to 3rd gear to hit 60 mph, while I believe the 328 does not. The upshift adds about half a second to the 0-60 time. Add a Dinan chip to that 325i and you raise the rev limiter (in addition to a few extra hp.), which allows you to hit sixty in 2nd. So, that alone will drop the 0-60 time considerably without regard to whether power has been increased (which it probably has, Dinan says 207 hp, 210 ft/lbs.), but may not really make the car 'faster'.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[rjp325i]

Like you said there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Throw in variables such vehicle tires, drivers, car mileage, weather when the runs were timed, general vehicle condition (some test cars have been mercilessly treated by the press corps), etc. and there isn't much difference. Individual cars will vary. Don't forget the intro of vanos which broadened the power curve as well. Again lies, damn lies, and stats.

 

[Dnz]

what about double vanos? does that come in anywhere???

 

[rjp325i]

Double vanos affects both the intake AND exhaust valve timing while single just affects the intakes. All E46 models have it but I'm not sure when it was introduced on the E36s. It was included on the combined model year when there was the E46 sedan and the E36 coupe. Possibly all 328s may have been double but maybe someone else has a more definitive answer for you. I'll check some of my BMW literature later unless someone has a ready answer.

 

[sstrawsb]

The 325i has 189 hp/181 ft. lbs tq. The 328i 190 hp/207 ft. lbs tq.

Published reports put a manual 93-95 325i at 7.5-7.8 sec. to 60. A 328i is 7.0 sec. for 96, 6.6 for 97-99 (99 was E46 style for sedan, but E36 for coupe).

I think there is a final drive ratio or manual trans ratio difference between the 96 and the 97+ 328s that accounts for the difference, but ICBW. There is a similar discrepancy between the 96 M3s and the 97+.

I found a link to this data before the forum crashed, but I don't know the source of the #s or the transmission type for each car, although I could guess that convertible was an automatic, as was the 93 325i, based on the higher #s.

1992 BMW 325i 7.8 15.8
1993 BMW 325i 8.4 16.5
1993 BMW 325is 7.4 15.7
1994 BMW 325i 7.4 15.5
1994 BMW 325is 7.2 15.9
1994 BMW 325i Conv. 7.3 15.9
1995 BMW 325i 7.7 16.0
1995 BMW 325i Conv. 9.1 16.9
1996 BMW 328i Sport 6.4 15.0
1998 BMW 328is 6.2 14.7
1999 BMW 328i (E46) 6.9 15.2

Depends what you want to do with the car. Stock the 328 is faster, as a result of the bump in torque and the peak torque occuring at a lower rpm. The 325 is capable of greater gains in the aftermarket, as it is OBDI, vs. the 328 being OBDII. The 325 remains the favorite among the club-racer/touring car types.

Keep in mind that 0-60 is deceptive. A stock 325i needs an upshift to 3rd gear to hit 60 mph, while I believe the 328 does not. The upshift adds about half a second to the 0-60 time. Add a Dinan chip to that 325i and you raise the rev limiter (in addition to a few extra hp.), which allows you to hit sixty in 2nd. So, that alone will drop the 0-60 time considerably without regard to whether power has been increased (which it probably has, Dinan says 207 hp, 210 ft/lbs.), but may not really make the car 'faster'.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

How much does a Dinan chip run for? hehe i like all these mods, exhaust, chip, short throw shifter, mmmm i love cars

 

[rjp325i]

Up to and incl 1995 models chips runabout $200. Conforti chips increase the output throughout the power range and throttle opening while Dinan changes its mapping at full throttle only. Conforti, Dinan, Autothority, not much difference between them, all about the same price. 1996 and late require reprogramming your existing ECU by way of the maintenance connector. Devices such as Jim Conforti's Shark Injector removes the stock program, stores it, inserts its own program. The stock program can then be reinstalled at any time. These run about $300 or so depending upon source.

 

[brahtw8]

How much does a Dinan chip run for? hehe i like all these mods, exhaust, chip, short throw shifter, mmmm i love cars

All of the answers you seek are here:

http://www.dinanbmw.com/default.htm

They offer over $20k worth of parts for an E36 325i or 328i. None of it cheap, but all of it quality.

Their pricing guide is 142 pages long.

The chip is $299. The 1996-on cars (OBDII) use a software upgrade instead of a chip replacement. It costs $399.

I have a Dinan chip in my 1994 325i.

Check www.turnermotorsport.com for parts (and many other sources)

They offer the Jim Conforti chip, which is generally considered to be the best one on the market. The Dinan is good too, but I always heard that the Conforti squeezed a few more ponies out of the engine. Plus, I see it is $249. AFAIK, they only make chips, not software downloads, so they don't offer that upgrade for the 96+ cars.

But remember, that $299 is better spent on a helmet, say a Bell M2, for your first driving school at your local track.

 

[rjp325i]

As I mentioned previously. Conforti is the maker of the Shark Injector, a software download into post 1995 BMWs. If you have a 2003 or 4 I do not know if it is available yet but it will be soon. I have the Conforti chip in my 1989 that I got from Turner Motorsport. Turner has been having $50 off specials the last couple of months on both setups. You are correct in saying Conforti gets the last bit of hp out the engine. The one downer is that if you experience very high temps (105+) like we do in Las Vegas the octane requirements exceed the 91 octane gas available here. Threrefore I have to mix in 3+ gals of competition 100 gas into each tankfull to raise it up to 93 or so. The knock sensors simply cannot keep up therefore the need to beef up the gas. The main difference between Dinan and Conforti is that the Dinan output is increased only when full throttle is used while Conforti also yields improvement at part throttle. As a bonus my car runs smoother and gas mileage improved 10%. Hope this helps a little. You are also right to suggest a helmet and a driving school. Long after the car is gone the driving school experience will always be with you.
Also, Steve Dinan's own personal M3 was at our club driving school this past May at LV Motor Speedway. It was driven there by Satch Carlson of the Roundel as he was a instructor. The car had everthing Dinan makes and sells on it except the supercharger. It was awesome. This November we have Wil Turner scheduled to speak as he will be in town for the SEMA show. There is a lot of experience to take advantage of by being a BMW CCA member.

 

[Dnz]

anyone got any solid numbers or a break down of what improvements mods can make?

Like what to expect from the chip in terms of torque and hp?

 

[brahtw8]

anyone got any solid numbers or a break down of what improvements mods can make?

Like what to expect from the chip in terms of torque and hp?

Dinan has graphs and numbers of the dyno results for the modifications listed on their site. See my post above for the link to their site and all shall be revealed.

I think TMS/Conforti post only the max increase in torque and hp, although you may be able to find a dyno graph if you search their site. Keep in mind that the max increase will usually not correspond with the increase at peak hp/torque. In other words, a chip may give you 22 hp over stock, but the peak horsepower is only increased by 18, from 189 to 207. The reason for the difference is the maximum increase occurs at a point where the engine is not making peak power. For example, if the engine makes 170 hp. at a particular rpm, but 192 with the chip, they will state the max increase of 22 hp, even though peak hp doesn't go up that much.